Where new players fit on special teams

The Redskins special teams unit remains a work in progress. Let us be clear, 2017 was no dumpster fire of a season for special teams like 2013, but the Skins are far away from being where you would want them to be.

To quickly go through the numbers. Tress Way was solid, with 39.8% of his punts ending up inside the 20-yard line (good for 11th in the league) and he finished 13th in his average punt’s 45.7 yards, and Hopkins and Rose ended up combining 24 for 27 on FG’s.

Though not elite, the kicking game has been solid for the last few years, but where the Redskins have had problems, has been in the areas of covering and returning. Washington’s finished 25th in FG returns averaging just 19.8 yards per return and 27th in punt returns with a 6.1-yard average. And when it comes to yards allowed on a punt return, the Skins finished 5 worst, averaging 6.7 yards per return.

Clearly, an upgrade is needed when it comes to the return man, and it looks like Washington is giving themselves some options outside Jamison Crowder for next season. Greg Stroman had 127 punt returns in his career for 1,108 yards and 4 TD’s, on kickoffs he averaged 20.8 yards a return in 23 attempts. De’Mornay Pierson-El had 74 punt returns, 3 TD’s and 904 yards, he was really impressive his freshman year when he averaged 17.5 yards per return. But the one that may surprise us all and make the roster this season could end up being running back Martez Carter, who didn’t do a whole lot in punt returns but on kickoffs had 92 returns for 2,066 yards and 4 touchdowns.

When it comes to finding guys who can play on the coverage unit, it’s going to be a bit trickier. Last season the guys who played the most snaps on special teams were Fabian Moreau (349), Chris Carter (330), Josh Holsey (227), Quinton Dunbar (224) Deshazor Everett (221) and Niles Paul (218). Because of the injuries to the roster 67 different players took the field at some point or another on special teams. The Redskins have lacked a dominant tackler and leadership on special teams since Lorenzo Alexander left. Carter and Paul were supposed to help take charge of those duties, but if the numbers are any indicator, it didn’t work out.

Troy Apke seems like the teams first pick to replace those duties, the safety out of Penn State has expressed an eagerness to make his name on Special Teams, he also played a lot of special teams at Penn State. My only concern with Apke is size. I think the Skins need to find someone bigger guys to fill Carter’s role. You have to hope that maybe Shaun Dion Hamilton or Josh Harvey-Clemons can step in and make their presence felt.

Going forward the skins are going to need to spend some serious time this offseason grooming a few of these new prospects into full-time special teams players. It would be smart for them to move away from using guys like Crowder and Chris Thompson as the punt and kick returners, as they are more valuable with how they contribute to the offense. If one of these rookies can take over punt and kick duties, and Apke can be that much needed tackling machine, we should see a big step forward.

626 comments

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  • I get that fans are in “show me” mode….but I think the Redskins are moving in the right direction. I think they will be a good team.

    • No Punt Intended

      Success in the NFL is a battle of attrition. The healthiest teams, or should I say, the least-injured teams win more as the season progresses.

      I think we all know what happens when a team loses more than 20 players to injury.

      Anything could happen but I do not see the team losing that many of our best players like last year and that alone suggests we will be a better team; which should show in the ‘win’ column.

  • Where’s Flounder?

  • So we signed a bunch of rookies today huh?

    This season needs to get on with…

    • No Punt Intended

      And 13 or so UDFA’s including Iowa G/C Sean Welsh.

      At 6’3”, 306 pounds, he is an impressive offensive lineman who is extremely versatile. He was asked to play all over the line at Iowa and did so with ease. Welsh looks and plays like those prototypical Hawkeye lineman – very well rounded both in the run and passing game. In the NFL, it is likely that Welsh could play either guard or center.

  • US military has bought $97m worth of a new toy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwOTWQc9YmY

  • No Punt Intended

    The Redskins’ defense/Special Teams is going to be a steal in this years’ FF draft. Personally and speaking as a 3 time champion, I stream defenses almost week to week at times, based on matchups.

    I intend to take the Redskins D/ST’s with my 2nd to last or last pick because I think Josh Rosen starts week 1.

  • Honestly, I’d rather handle a whole body than a limb.

    That’s just…creepy.

    Heebee jeebees creepy.

  • I know a guy that got permanently disabled while attempting to flee federal agents. He had already had some violent run-ins with law enforcement, so when the BATF came calling, they didn’t fuck around. Shot him in the ass with a 5.56, the round struck his pelvic bone, fragmented, one piece exited his hip, the other travelled down his leg and destroyed his knee. Outlawing is overrated.

  • noonefromtampa

    I’m started laughing when I read this, but I’m not sure if that is PC these days…

    Florida law enforcement arrested a legless fugitive woman after her boyfriend tried to stash her in a plastic tote in a Winter Haven home.

    Krystle Lee Anderson, 39, was wanted in Orange County for failure to appear in court for armed kidnapping, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon on a law enforcement officer, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and false imprisonment charges, according to a Polk County Sheriff’s Office release.

    The Polk County Sheriff’s Office and U.S. Marshals Florida Regional Fugitive Task Force, Orlando and Tampa offices, found her Tuesday in the home of her 48-year-old boyfriend John Robert Carr Jr. at 10-B Lake Elizabeth Drive in Winter Haven.

    Officers and agents were tipped off that Anderson was living with Carr. When law enforcement showed up, Carr told them Anderson wasn’t there. But someone saw him put Anderson in a plastic tote, the news release read.

    Anderson surrendered while Carr was arrested for resisting arrest, the news release read. Other charges against Carr are pending.

    In 2015, the news release read, Anderson visited a Burger King in Orange County and held customers inside hostage with a BB gun. She was later involved in a shooting with an Ocoee police officer, where she was injured and lost both legs.

    • noonefromtampa

      No get the nice plastic Walmart tote bag, that canvas Publix tote makes me itch

      • Legless armed kidnapping

        That alone is enough for a SVU episode

        • noonefromtampa

          TBF I think she did the kidnapping and then lost her legs afterwards

          I will see if I can find that story

          • noonefromtampa

            An Ocoee Police officer shot and injured a woman who was threatening her relative with a firearm inside a Burger King last week.

            The shooting happened on May 22 when Krystal Lee Anderson was in the Burger King on Silver Star Road, trying to confront her relative, who works at the fast food restaurant, according to Deputy Chief Ted Silberstein.

            When an officer went into the restaurant and told Anderson to drop her weapon, Anderson pointed the firearm at him, Silberstein said.

            “The officer, who [was] in fear not only for his own life but also the lives of the terrorized employees, fired his weapon wounding” Anderson, Silberstein said.

            Anderson was taken to Orlando Regional Medical Center.

            As a result of her wounds, Anderson lost her legs.
            ==========================================
            Maybe she got an infection in the hospital and they had to amputate her legs

            staph or MRSA?

          • They cut off the wrong leg but still had to go back and sever the infected one!

            That’d be hysterical. If it were actually true.

    • No Punt Intended

      Her defense won’t have a leg to stand on.

      • WaitingGuilty

        The boyfriend was able to fool police earlier that day when he hid her at a nearby tennis court- when questioned by the officers he was able to keep them at bay by saying “Oh- her? That’s just Annette.”

    • Meth is bad. Don’t do Meth.

  • No Punt Intended

    Ian CrapReport just mentioned that Payne’s deal is done and is 4 years for just under 15 mil.

    • He really put that out? Payne’s deal had to be 4 years, and the money was already established. Brilliant work by Rapoport.

  • Bruce get’n it done

    • It’s not like it’s a tough negotiation. There’s literally almost nothing to bargain for.

      • Right. But it’s done. They’re signed and ready to hit rookie camp.

      • Unless your last name is Bosa, then you have to be a cunt, on general principal.

        • POO-WAHHH!!!

        • Bosa’s issue was offsets, if I recall. He wanted no offset in the even he’s cut, meaning that if he’s cut and then signs a new contract with another team, his new contract isn’t offset by the amount of his guarantee.

  • noonefromtampa

    Everyone but Christian is signed

  • No Punt Intended

    Matt Jones signed by the Iggles.

    • WaitingGuilty

      I really thought he’d be a good WR when he came out of Arkansas and made the conversion from QB.

      • No Punt Intended

        Matt Jones will join the Super Bowl champions.

        NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported that the running back is signing with the Philadelphia Eagles on Wednesday. The team later announced Jones had signed a two-year deal.

        Jones won a three-back workout Tuesday, Rapoport added. It was reported yesterday that Terrance West was part of the group that visited Philly.

        Jones, a former 2015 third-round pick of the Washington Redskins, was waived by the Indianapolis Colts following the NFL draft. The 25-year-old bounced from the Colts active roster to the practice squad and back in 2017, earning just five carries for 14 yards in five appearances. Jones fell out of favor quickly in Washington after two fumble-filled, inefficient seasons.

        In Philly, Jones could have the chance to earn a role as a power back behind Jay Ajayi, Darren Sproles and Corey Clement. With Donnel Pumphrey and Wendell Smallwood also currently on the roster, however, Jones will have an uphill battle to make the Eagles’ squad.

  • Redskins have apparently signed 7 draft picks. No press release yet, though.

  • noonefromtampa

    so WaPo article up almost 24 hours and has 53 comments

    pathetic not only from lack of content to customer engagement POVs

  • noonefromtampa

    Hey Rick avoid doing these things and you will be Okay

    couponing while black,
    graduating too boisterously while black,
    waiting for a school bus while black,
    throwing a kindergarten temper tantrum while black,
    drinking iced tea while black,
    waiting at Starbucks while black,
    AirBnB’ing while black,
    shopping for underwear while black,
    having a loud conversation while black,
    golfing too slowly while black,
    buying clothes at Barney’s while black, or Macy’s, or Nordstrom Rack,
    getting locked out of your own home while black,
    going to the gym while black,
    asking directions to the school while black,
    asking for the Waffle House corporate number while black,
    reading C.S. Lewis while black and
    driving while black

  • My new go to clip for blog fights

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl94Rr3fq50

    • Damn that looks fun. My kind of tournament .

      • Does Catfish Cooley ever get to Georgia? Bout swear the fella that loses his shirt is none other.

        • IDK. Catfish could probably do a little damage before it’s over . He’s cray cray .

          • He’d prolly just as soon throw hot sauce on a fella and try to eat them instead of fight’n em

          • I don’t think he would go down easy , just a guess . not with the girly punches them guys were throwing anyway .

    • “we will stop this tournament right now!”

      My man in the pink shirt was tryna get crunk, damn party poopers.

  • What happened to Hope?

  • Different_Cat

    Steve Thomas Team Captain Coach JS • an hour ago
    I can honestly and fairly say that I hate Lebron James.
    ————–
    I don’t get the Lebron hate at all, although I’ll admit to being pissed at him when he ditched Miami. He’s making a case for being the G.O.A.T. Never been in any trouble on or off the court. Tremendous BBall IQ and knowledge of the history of the game. Want back to Cleveland and brought them a title after getting viciously slandered by the owner….

    • there’s no way to evaluate a player with any real satisfaction outside of his own generation, let alone the variables that exist with coaching, team facilities, players that surround you, etc. the idea of a single GoAT is, from a scientific perspective, preposterous. if you look at as an experiment, the NBA (sports) experiment is only designed to test ability in an extremely temporal fashion.

  • noonefromtampa

    to bring in the 3pt shot without allowing teams to play zone defense ruined the NBA

    I have not watched a complete NBA game in 25 years

    and I watched and played way more basketball than football growing up

  • The prevalence of the 3pt shot has completely nullified the prototypical big/post man…this current Warriors abomination is the greatest team ever assembled. I’ve spent time on basketball reference .com searching all the great Finals teams of the past, and none come close matching the offensive prowess of the Warriors. Jordan’s 72-10 Bulls, Jordan was getting his 30, but the next best scorer was averaging about 18pts per game.

    • All sports evolve, at some point a team will figure out a way to defend the Warriors.

      • don’t look now, but the NFC East is loading up with “obsolete” running backs

      • The NBA evolved, particularly in the way they started changing rules and reffing games in order to make the game more guard-friendly. That’s why the Warriors dominate the way they do. If teams were allowed to mug players today the way the Pistons mugged Jordan, then I don’t think a Warriors team would survive the injuries in an 80 game season. But since a star guard gets to go the FT line for being looked at funny and the hand-check is gone, well…

        • I gots all six fouls to use, and they only have 5 starters.

          -Bill Laimbeer

        • So, I guess the question is still. How can you defend it? Is it a matter finding taller guys at guard who can defend, or just make the shot more difficult?

    • the Detroit Piston’s Bad Boys would disassemble them

    • The Lakers at the height of the Showtime era could’ve beaten any team from any era.

  • NBA.
    Lebron entered the Jordan Debate the moment he won a title with Cleveland…

    And if it wasn’t for Kyrie and Love being hurt the first finals series and that salary cap loophole that allowed the 2nd best player on the planet to join the best team on the Planet, Lebron would be sitting on 5 titles right now!

    • The real GOAT debate is Wilt vs Kareem.

      • They were talented and transformed the game, but they didn’t posses the all around ability Lebron does.

        • I don’t think Lebron is legitimately in the discussion.

          Of course my hatred of Lebron James is so strong that I can’t even watch games he’s playing in, because I dislike him that much.

          It’s going to be a real problem for me if he moves to the Lakers. I’m praying he doesn’t.

      • Tim Duncan might be as talented or more talented than either.

        But he had a generation or two to watch em.

        Down 1, with the ball. Shaq is in the paint for the other team. I’ll take Kareem or Duncan over Chamberlain ftw there.

    • “And if it wasn’t for…”

      I love how the LeBron apologists use imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to state their case. It reminds me of how Brandon Banks led the league in imaginary big plays.

      “Well if Lebron had Pippen…”
      “If Lebron was coached by Jackson…”

      As if there aren’t a million of those scenarios that you couldn’t come up with Jordan. Like if he hadn’t taken those years off, he’d have 8 consecutive rings.

      Or id he had gotten to play with 4 other HOFers (like Bill Russell), then he’d have 11 rings (like Bill Russell).

  • It’s been great reading this thread today…we should never shy away from talking about race and politics!!!
    Is it just me or are minorities in general less interested in manning law enforcement positions?

    • Law Enforcement is for the irish.

    • I don’t know whether the stats back that up or not.

      And these sorts of positive conversations usually don’t happen here – they usually end up in disaster and deleted comments. Glad to see it went well today.

  • noonefromtampa

    You need to have Skype for Business and Cisco Unified Communications Manager (CUCM)

    [I kid you not it’s called CUCM]

    something about SIP integration with Skype

    I’m not a Unified Communications guy, so I can’t give you all the details

    • You can also go Polycom, we are about to switch from Cisco to Polycom.
      But yes it’s largely due to a SIP issue that there’s so many problems. Also there is the IP vs ISDN issues for those who still use ISDN.

  • Setting up a VTC with someone, they call my phone to see what’s going on. I tell them it looks good from our end, but all I see is a close up of some politicians photo, and it looks like Ed Asner. “We don’t have a photo of Ed Asner.” They reply.

    • we have a “VTC” room
      eventhough… for 5 years ALL our laptops have webcams and we have available to us portable webcams
      yet we still have a new Cisco monstrosity in that room… and while any rube can operate a webcam and Connect/Skype/Webex, it takes a call into an operator to get a VTC meeting set up.
      I just…don’t… get… it. And SOMEPEOPLE want to do VTC AND Skype. Talk about a PRODUCTION nightmare!

      • It’s easy to do.
        The 1 reason to us VTC over skype is for security.

        • we have Skype for Business (formerly Lync) and it runs on our internal secure servers

          it isn’t impossible, but managing both at the same time while attempting to participate is a problem

          • That’s why you still need managers for large set ups.
            Skype is great if you have 3-4 people.

          • we have Connect for larger meetings with more production too, there’s no reason for the VTC there

          • I will say, not a Skype for Business fan generally, I find the free skype more reliable. We do a lot of VTC’s with Australia and China, but most are US to US cities, typically 10-15 places at once.

            They keep boasting that you can do a 250 person skype, but I can’t imagine that ever works out well.

          • We’ve also discovered in doing the show for awhile now that Skype for Business isn’t compatible with regular Skype.

          • Yes

          • at least the way it is configured for us, it isn’t nearly as powerful as Connect and you can’t do live meetings that might include outside folks because of 508. Connect at least, has a captioning feature built in (you have to pay a 3rd party for the service, but it plugs right in to the event)

          • Yeah, that’s a big discussion we’re having, 508.
            Skype says they are going to add captions. But I’m not gonna trust it till I see it. If you have ever seen automatic captions, they usually get about 20% of the words wrong.

          • well, usually a human captioner (which is how Connect works, at least the way we use it) often will miss on any tech/jargon words and sometimes mistake acronyms for words, etc. some people insist you must have it live and then a fully corrected transcript. And that doubles the cost of even a fairly highly-produced event.

          • Oh. I know. All our public webcasts have to have captions. Dealing with that stuff is my day to day job.

          • noonefromtampa

            it’s not that hard we have same set-up Skype and Cisco VTC

          • noonefromtampa

            and we do it across the world, India, Singapore, Manila, Netherlands, London, NYC, Dallas, Tampa all at once

          • Mr Worldwide!

            -Pitbullfromtampa

      • noonefromtampa

        Our Skype and VTC are connected

        dial the Skype number and enter Skype ID #

        boom video call

  • noonefromtampa

    Gators love their bad boys…

    One of the Florida Gators’ top incoming recruits was released from jail early Wednesday after police allege he kicked a female’s car and broke her phone after an argument.

    Justin Watkins — a four-star athlete from Clermont — and an unnamed female had a verbal argument last week. Watkins then took her cell phone, left and later threw it on the ground, shattering its screen, according to a probable cause affidavit obtained Thursday by the Tampa Bay Times.

    Watkins followed the female to the student parking lot at a Marion County high school. He then kicked her car and tried to let air out of the tires — an action confirmed by the school’s video surveillance.

    Because Watkins was not a student at the unnamed high school, he was arrested Tuesday afternoon on a misdemeanor complaint of trespassing on school grounds. According to jail records, he was released at 2:37 a.m. on $500 bond.

    “We are aware of the incident with Justin and are still collecting information,” Gators coach Dan Mullen said.

  • Whiskey in the jar-o

  • http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23456720/is-lebron-james-michael-jordan-greatest-nba-player-all

    Really interesting statistical analysis of MJ vs. LeBron for GOAT.

    Spoiler Alert: Neither is the GOAT (the order is Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Baylor, West, Worthy, AC Green, Lonzo Ball, every other Laker ever, then MJ, then LeBron, apparently…)

    • The order is Wilt, Kareem, MJ, Magic. Lebron is just due to recency bias.

    • LeBron isn’t in that conversation…don’t get me started. It’s a microaggression.

    • to be the GoAT you have to significantly exceed the GoAT of the generation before you; and that’s because you’ve been able to watch them work, watch how they train, benefit from advances in health, S&C, etc. That’s why Kobe isn’t in the GoAT discussion.

      Wilt Chamberlain would probably have played with 40 more lbs of muscle, for example, and prob have a decent (for a 5) 3 point shot, if he played today

    • noonefromtampa

      was the article written by Steve?

    • I can honestly and fairly say that I hate Lebron James.

  • Hello, guest voter, pull up a chair, grab a beer, stay awhile.

  • noonefromtampa

    so I guess some in the media are going to try and make Matt Patricia the next log on the fire of the MeToo movement

    if the charges are dropped, you’re innocent in the eyes of the law

    convictions not arrests make you guilty

    • The fact that the charges are dropped sometimes just means that the prosecution thinks you did it, but doesn’t have enough evidence to prove their case, but I understand your point. There’s a difference between “not guilty” and “innocent”.

      • noonefromtampa

        there’s knowing you did it and proving you did it

        if the prosecutors can’t prove it, you are innocent, that’s the American way

      • in this case… there was no payment, no settlement
        and either the prosecution had problems with the witness or the witness no longer wanted to press

        spring break regret is not a crime for the Other

  • noonefromtampa

    Nashville emerges as ‘leading contender’ to host 2019 NFL draft

  • walter_in_fallschurch

    Lightning ticket restrictions could make it harder for Caps fans to get tickets
    Tampa Bay has amended its ticket policy for the next round of the playoffs, barring anyone without a Florida Zip code from buying tickets through the team or its official partner, Ticketmaster.
    —————————-

    that is lame. no, beyond lame.

    • Caps started that trend years ago.
      The “no opposing jerseys” thing is even dumber.

      • walter_in_fallschurch

        huh? are you saying fans from tampa bay cannot buy tickets to verizon (or whatever they’re calling it now) center?

    • noonefromtampa

      As a Caps fan I have no problems buying Lightning tickets

      • noonefromtampa

        you must have missed yesterday discussion on this topic

        you also cannot wear opposing fans colors in premium seat areas at the arena

    • It’s not nearly the first time this has been done, though.

  • walter_in_fallschurch

    loving me some john mccain.

    • I’ll say if every politician had John McCain’s integrity, we would be a whole lot better off.

    • Which John Mccain? The artist from Santa Fe, or the kooky Senator from AZ?

    • Bomb-bomb-bomb…bomb-bomb-Iran

      • noonefromtampa

        Harold Brown and Zbigniew Brzezinski would not go for that

        pissed my Dad off til the day he died

      • Different_Cat

        He has more integrity than most, but he’s certainly had his lapses. Sarah Palin, for example.

        • Gotta believe that was pushed on him more than it was his decision.

          At the time, she seemed like the only way to counter the “it’ll be historic!” factor Obama had going for him.

          Bad move by the GOP, not necessarily by McCain.

      • Bomb- Ira-a-an, feel my ha-a-and….

    • He should’ve left the Republican party a long time ago, as he isn’t a political conservative. Further, I’ve always been disappointed over his defense of the military considering his personal and family background. He should’ve been our champion, but he never really was. I’m sorry about his health, but I’m not devastated that he’s leaving the Senate.

  • Different_Cat

    p1funk Different_Cat • 34 minutes ago
    “Privilege” means specifically that you are getting a special advantage. If the system does not seem to be working out for some people, then that requires some further in-depth look and addressing. But when it seems to be working for people, then that is not by definition a “privilege”.

    Second, statistical studies will show trends over time and produce numbers. People then draw conclusions from and interpret those numbers. “White privilege” is not a statistical study. It is a belief that is conjured up to explain something – like a religion.

    Nazi scientists did the same thing. Produced numbers and studies showing this and that about different racial groups. Then they painted a belief on top of all those numbers.
    —————–
    Seems like you just want to argue semantics. The special advantage that whites get is that they aren’t discriminated against because of their race. Just because you don’t suffer from race-based discrimination doesn’t mean that you don’t have a lot of other challenges to deal with.

    Now, you can generically dismiss studies if you want to (anti-intellectualism), but for the most part they are very well done. The best ones are based on blind applications for jobs, mortgages, etc., where the applicants have essentially equal qualifications, but some are assigned white sounding names and others are assigned black sounding names. One such study found that the effect of having a black sounding name was the equivalent of having a credit score that was 71 points lower.

    http://atlantablackstar.com/2016/01/31/study-racial-discrimination-in-mortgage-lending-continues-to-impact-african-americans-with-a-black-name-lowering-ones-credit-score-by-71-points/

  • noonefromtampa

    Micheal Wilbon is a minor league sports reporter

  • Statistics show Iran’s active duty personnel significantly outnumber Israel’s, but Israel – with a larger annual military budget – has more than enough weaponry to protect itself from Iran.

  • alex35332 Team Captain • 14 minutes ago
    As a society it seems humility, and self-awareness are largely viewed as weakness
    ——————————————————————————————————————
    I agree. But, isn’t humility what the term “white privilege” is calling for?

    I mean, realize that you had a lot of help getting to wherever you are, whoever you are.

    And self-awareness/kindness/decency would prevent a whole lot of “microagression” whether intentional or not.

    • I’d say having some humility and self-awareness helps with all of it. As I said at the start of the whole discussion on microagression. I know I’ve got my ‘ticks’ when it comes to that kind of stuff, but at least I’m aware enough to say so, or see them after and during.

  • And they wonder why nothing ever gets done in Washington DC………… careful now, ya’ll don’t all stand on one end of the Island, might flip over.

  • noonefromtampa

    so they are renaming JEB Stuart HS?

    I remember going to watch Jim O’Brien play there when I was growing up before he went to MD

    Are they renaming Lee HS too?

    • Think JEB is already renamed.
      I know Washington-Lee HS was talking about it.

      • One of my favorite things in life is to tell my mother that Robert E. Lee was a traitor who should have been executed. She’s from Virginia and still views him as a hero.

        • A story I’ve told before, when I first went to college in PA, I was in a history class. And hearing the story of the hero John Brown for the first time, and when going to school in VA he was always called a traitor, (and no one ever really mentioned how he was trying to free slaves).

    • noonefromtampa

      I tried to date a girl who went there name Julie Smith

      Dad was a Col. in the army and they move to Germany

      Years later went to see The Hand That Rocks the Cradle with the wife

      I’m like damn that lady looks a lot like Julie Smith and the wife told me I was full of BS

      few years later after the Internet came around, I learned Julianne Moore was indeed Julie Smith

    • walter_in_fallschurch

      indeed, noone. someday in the near future, it will be called “Justice High School”. bothers me, personally, as a privileged white male alum, but, i guess this is where we are going. i completely understand the idea that the confederacy was about preserving slavery (and just to be clear – i hate slavery) and we should not exalt those dedicated to preserving slavery.. but dang….

    • Not yet. (I went there). My twin brother went to Penn State. When asked, he told them he went to Robert E. Lee High School in Virginia. He was actually asked, “Do the let black people go there.”

      The problem with this country is stupid.

  • walter_in_fallschurch

    so, if k0n were to speed up to prevent me from changing into “his” lane, would i be a victim of microaggression?

  • I’ll also say this about racism – in my opinion, people automatically assuming alot of the things that happen to them are due to racism, without considering other factors may be involved, is a huge problem, too.

    • This is absolutely true.

      The more we make “racism” the reflexive go to cry, the less powerful it will become, and the more it will seem like simply one political side bullying the other into submission.

  • I find discussions of “white privilege” to be a “microaggression”. So there you go.

  • Are we still doing the thing where we used flawed studies and really biased, as well, prejudiced anecdotal evidence to make an argument?

    Also, there is no such thing as race. Ethnic groups, yes. However, we are one species god dangit. Not several races.

    • I think ethnic group distinctions are silly, too.

      • Aye. Got to start somewhere though. Race is a frign misnomer. It’s time to expunge it from the lexicon.

        • To me: there’s a physical difference between a German Shepherd and a Chihuahua, which is why we classify them as different breeds of dog. People are all the same.

          • But then you remove from people their genectic distinctions and what they want to be special about themselves.

            pfft

          • Ta-Nehisi Coates, black National Book Award winning writer, also agrees there’s only one race: human.

            And he is nobody’s idea of an Uncle Tom. Far from it. Read “Between the World and Me.”

  • walter_in_fallschurch

    what the hell is “micro-aggression”? i really do not know. i should probably be more socially/culturally aware or whatever, but can someone provide examples?

    • noonefromtampa

      Walt ain’t woke

    • It fits into the “passive aggressive” toolbox, imo.

    • Someone cuts in front of you in the grocery store, and you assume it is because you are black.

      That’s what was explained to me.

      • I understood it to be more like, you cut in front of a black person, and you did it because you didn’t see the person because they are black. Which is silly.

    • I think a good example would be if a black person sits down next to a white person on the subway, and the white person stands up and moves to a different seat. That seems like one to me.

      But it could be that the black person has really strong perfume on and the white has allergies, and then… not so microaggressive.

      • I’d say that is a fairly good example.

        • Just curious, though: Do you agree that it isn’t microaggression if the person has allergies and can’t take the perfume?

          • Was the subject broached?
            Maybe someone should to let the person know to stop with the perfume?

          • You ever tried to tell anyone that their perfume is too strong?

            That’s a tough convo to have. But maybe better than seeming like a microagressor.

    • Go below, I posted the dictionary definition.

  • noonefromtampa

    12 tons of liquid milk chocolate covering a highway in Poland is hardening, blocking traffic and creating a nightmare for clean-up crews.

    The chocolate spilled onto the highway near Slupca, Poland, early Wednesday, when a tractor-trailer transporting the chocolate overturned.
    =================================
    They just need 24 tons of strawberries

  • Nazi scientists did the same thing. Produced numbers and studies showing this and that about different racial groups. Then they painted a belief on top of all those numbers.
    —————————————————————–
    Most importantly, they worked to divide the people into the bad guys, the blind followers, and the people too scared of being socially outcast to speak up and say “This makes no sense.”

  • It’s something that’s been proven over and over and over again in various studies showing that, statistically, blacks and other minorities are disadvantaged when it comes to things like loans/mortgages, hiring decisions, housing, etc.
    —————————————————————————-
    Cool. I agree.

    But that doesn’t mean that subjective and/or guilt/shaming terms like “microaggression” and “white privilege” actually help solve the problem. Or that they don’t come fraught with a lot of political baggage.

    • “Or that they don’t come fraught with a lot of political baggage.”

      Is this a thing? Do people actually have a problem with carrying their own political baggage?

      • They, in this case, are not people, but the terms. Terms do have political baggage.

        Did I miss something?

        • I dunno, personally if someone calls me out for an action, and I feel guilt or shame, then at some level I probably know my attitudes or actions are
          wrong. But I live with them.

          It seems to me that when people get bent out of shape about this stuff it’s because they usually do not want to self examine their own flaws, or the have and they don’t know how to live with them.

      • walter_in_fallschurch

        they have guys at the airports who’ll carry your baggage. you should tip them when done.

    • That’s not even what “white privilege” is referring to. Trends that reveal discrimination are there and have been part of good healthy social discussion for a while; that’s something different.

  • Here’s my philosophy on race, summarized in two sentences: I won’t hold your genetics or under what circumstances you were born against you, and I ask that you don’t hold the sins of my forefathers against me. Let’s just be reasonable to each other.

    • walter_in_fallschurch

      “Let’s just be reasonable to each other.”
      ————

      amen, or something, bro. it is not rocket surgery.

  • walter_in_fallschurch

    my daughter, a high-performing, pretty, white female often spoke how how she could get away with anything at JEB Stuart (now, “justice”) high school. she could walk the halls between classes with impunity, while her darker-skinned friends would be stopped by monitors and asked for hall passes, etc…. when she and her friends would get busted for this or that little infraction, she was always treated with greater respect than her dark-skinned friends. these are just the facts.

    btw, say “Justice High” a few times fast….. hilarious. imagine the cheers: “we’re justice high!”

  • Both parents smoked which killed my dad
    Parents split when I was 17
    Grandfather drank himself to death
    Government cheese in the cupboard along with food stamps

    Yeah please tell me about all that white privilege I’ve experienced I’m just dying to hear about it

  • noonefromtampa

    Microaggression, white privilege, cultural appropriation

    you can’t rail against if you can’t put a label on it

    Marketing 101

    • Or as I kinda said below.
      Would you rather us discuss these issues with labels like Microaggression, white privilege, cultural appropriation. Or would you rather us call you all closet nazi’s and flip the table?

    • Different_Cat

      I would agree that the terms aren’t helpful, or really necessary, even if the concepts behind them are valid.

    • How do we label covert double agent shit stirrers?

  • noonefromtampa

    I remember about 25-30 years ago when the first PC based GIS software came out and you could download you data and generate informational maps against various data sources like postal and census information.

    I did a prototype application for the mortgage division showing where loans where made, you paid back the best, where collections issues where, etc.

    it was totally cool at the time and everyone was impressed until we turned on the race layer and all the green maps areas belong to whites and and the reds where minority areas

    seemed we did not loan to minorities very much and they were usually are biggest collection issues

    only work I ever did where I was ordered to destroy everything and we all pretended it never happened

    now bear in mind financial institutions are monitored for their lending practices, but this software made made it way too easy to see where problems were

    I’m surprised the Feds never did anything with the same software but I think it was because at the time it was very pricy

    • noonefromtampa

      and the Feds always seem to lag on the technology curve for some reason

      they either don’t understand what they created and its possible applications

      or they make it too hard to have a manageable solution for the problem

    • Different_Cat

      I think others have done that same kind of analysis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

      • o0

      • noonefromtampa

        Yes that was my point, that using the GIS mapping software

        where redlining was occurring whether practiced or by happenstance became very obvious with just a few mouse clicks

        the feds with the same information reported to them would take years sometimes to reach the same conclusion or never get there at all

  • All this because slick felt like some woman who he didn’t know wasn’t meeting his eyes in her conversation

    SMH

    • This highlights the problem that Pfunk is trying to point out.

      A term like “microagression” is so subjective as to be meaningless on the whole.

      Any perceived slight can be a “microaggression” even if it is just an inadvertent social slip that has nothing to do with race.

    • Maybe she found him dashing! Gazing into his eyes would have turned her to putty in his hands, and she needed to keep a clear head……. happens to me all the time.

  • It sounds like the productive part of this discussion is probably over.

  • Microaggression, white privilege, cultural appropriation = Let’s complain about white people in a way that sounds intellectual and learned.

    • Amen.

    • Intellectual appropriation = when liberals highjack the academic language in order to force their political views on everybody.

      • I compare it to the psuedo-science of Nazi raciology. They wanted to believe whites were supreme, so they invented a smart-seeming way to “prove” what they already believed.

        Discussions about microagression, white privilege and cultural appropriation work the same way in the opposite direction.

    • Different_Cat

      And I suppose the flip-side = let’s pretend that these problems aren’t real because we resent intellectuals.

      • What?

        • Given that the first reaction towards those topics from P1 and Steve was to bash smart people. He has a point.

          • There was no bashing of intellectuals. There was a calling out of “pseudo-intellectual”. Go back and read it.

          • That just sounds funny, lol.

          • “pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo”
            Is literally a bashing of intellectuals.

          • p1funk strikes me as an intellectual. Maybe he doesn’t agree with your ideology, that doesn’t kick him out of the club.

          • I called “microagression” to be “pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo”. This is a matter of simple reading comprehension.

          • Well, fwiw, maybe intellectual peeps play games about racism between each other, white and black, black and white, but out here in the fields…….we fight for our meals………we don’t need to be forgiven……..yea yea yea yee-ahh

          • I have two advanced degrees, which would cause some to label me as an “intellectual”, so I’m not bashing all intellectuals. What I said was that this “microagression” term is nonsense invented by people trying to sound smart, and I agreed with p1’s statement that it’s a clear way for people to just bash white people.

      • As usual, you just barrel in part way and make no sense.

        • Different_Cat

          Doesn’t make sense? “White privilege” simply means having the advantage of not being discriminated against because you’re a minority. This is a real thing, even if you think the term for it is silly intellectual twaddle. “Microagression” is simply subtle discrimination, which is a real thing, even if the term some use for it sounds like silly intellectual twaddle.

          So you dismiss these things, which are real, because you don’t like the terminology?

          • “White privilege” assumes that the inherent experience of being white is more advantageous than being of another race. If you believe that’s true, then you believe that’s true. But that sort of thinking is a bald assertion. I call it “pseudo-intellectual” when people drone on and on about it, as if they have some kind of proof or evidence that this is generally the case and is thus generally accepted as true based on some kind of rationally demonstrated logic or proof. When they don’t. Pseudo-intellectual.

            If you want to catch up on the “microagression” discussion here, then scroll down and read.

          • Different_Cat

            No, it’s not simply a question of belief, like religion. It’s something that’s been proven over and over and over again in various studies showing that, statistically, blacks and other minorities are disadvantaged when it comes to things like loans/mortgages, hiring decisions, housing, etc.

            Where I think this runs off the rails is when people try to make this statistical argument personal. “I mean, I haven’t got anything special because I’m white!” And of course on that level it’s virtually impossible to prove. It’s sort of like saying smoking isn’t bad for you, because I don’t have lung cancer.

          • “Privilege” means specifically that you are getting a special advantage. If the system does not seem to be working out for some people, then that requires some further in-depth look and addressing. But when it seems to be working for people, then that is not by definition a “privilege”.

            Second, statistical studies will show trends over time and produce numbers. People then draw conclusions from and interpret those numbers. “White privilege” is not a statistical study. It is a belief that is conjured up to explain something – like a religion.

            Nazi scientists did the same thing. Produced numbers and studies showing this and that about different racial groups. Then they painted a belief on top of all those numbers.

    • Give it to them [white people] with both barrels if the shoe fits.

  • What the fuck did you start, Squinns, and where the hell did you find all these lawyers and convicts?

    • Squinnsamania, brother!

      I don’t think I started anything. Rick came up here this morning with the racism topic. People here have generally engaged in tempered and intelligent conversations on the issue; very rare.

  • Squinnsamania, brother!

    In the process of renting a rental property of ours. It’s not difficult to be racist if you want to be. You know the ethnicity of the person by their name or voice before you ever meet them.

    • Anyone with a handful of braincells would rent to a black family with a good credit report and financial status, they take care of their shit.

    • Different_Cat

      I think I’ve told this story before, but the first time I saw blatant racism in action was when I was looking for an apartment in New Orleans. My wife (then finacee) and I saw a guy painting a house and we asked him if it was going to be for rent. He said yeah, it was, and he’d give us the owner’s contact info. Then he added, “I’ve had a bunch of ni**ers ask about too, but I tell’em it’s not a rental.”

  • Microaggressions don’t just go one way.

    • No Punt Intended

      I think that would be a great name for a midget wrestler.

    • The definition provided explains that you have to be part of a marginalized group. So yes, it does only go one way. If I’m white, I am not part of the “marginalized” paradigm and thus cannot be microaggressed against.

  • Greg…you hold onto this, “if you work hard, then you’ll get ahead” argument. That’s not true for everyone bro’. Statistics show it.

    • There are a lot of things that can hold folks back, despite hard work. Drugs, alcohol, cancer, life drama, family drama, terrorism, natural disasters, predators, and so on.

      But on the whole, if you work hard and don’t break the law and are nice to people along the way, you will get ahead.

      Now, how far “ahead” is “ahead” is another issue. But opportunity is there. And bad things happen to all types of people.

    • Work hard
      Don’t break the law

      Things that I live by
      Working good for me

  • The true test of racism should be something like this:

    1.) Are you willing to get to know someone who doesn’t look like you? If YES, proceed to #2. If NO proceed to #4.
    2.) After getting to know the person’s believes, behaviors, attitudes, and opinions, do you still like the person? If YES proceed to #5. If NO proceed to #3.

    3.) You like people from a similar culture to yours and not folks who think/act differently.
    4.) You is a straight up racist.
    5.) You just made a friend. Congratulations!

  • Squinnsamania, brother!

    Its also not just about how it affecting my life. I do in fact care about how institutional racism affects others.

  • alex35332 Team Captain • 5 minutes ago Microaggressions are the everyday
    verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs, or insults, whether
    intentional or unintentional, which communicate hostile, derogatory, or
    negative messages to target persons based solely upon their
    marginalized group membership.
    ____________________________

    Gotta take this up here.

    So microaggression is me going through the checkout line at the grocery store, then feeling like the lady at the till looked at me funny and is scanning my groceries in a “different” way, and then me walking away believing that I have been racially micro-aggressed against…because, you know, the nonverbal and negative slights were subtly there.

    Mumbo Jumbo.

    • “microagression” is just quasi-intellectual mumbo-jumbo created by people trying to sound smart.

    • No, more like if you went in line at a grocery store and cut in front of someone who’s african american because you didn’t see them.

      • THAT is a micro aggression.

        • That’s why I used it as an example.

          • If that is an example of micro aggression then it goes both ways at least between blacks and whites anyway .

          • With that example, yes I’d say it can be. In fact, I had the reverse happen to me just 2 days ago waiting in line at a 7-11

          • True

          • No Buck, it does not go both ways. By definition provided you can only be micro-aggressed against if you are a member of a “marginalized” group. Hence white people will never be micro-aggressed against in the United States. It’s jsut one of those things…

        • OR you just weren’t thinking about them, because your daughter is about to marry some neo-Nazi KKK grand wizard, your wife is cheating on you with an uber-conservative evangelical pastor, and your son’s new hip-hop album just dropped and you need to get to the release party at the club in 5 minutes to introduce him.

          So, you’re stressed out and not paying attention to the wants/needs of others around you, no matter what color or “race” they are.

          Could be, right?

      • Did I actually not see them BECAUSE they were African-American? Is that a point that can be proven in the “microaggression” paradigm. Or is it assumed by the African American, regardless of whether it is true or could even be proven. And thus the African American is convinced it was racially related and thus a “microaggression”.

        • Another example that I’d say would qualify. The food desert phenomena in Washington DC. How in Wards 7 & 8, which are predominately poorer & African American, we have less grocery stores, restaurants, and those that are open in the area are found to have way more spoiled food on the shelves.

          I would put that into the same category. It’s not conscious racism, but an artifact of some of systemic racism from decades ago.

          • That’s not anything racist. That’s just business. Fewer business owners want to put their stores in economically depressed areas. You’ll find the same thing in poor white areas.

          • Nor do businesses want to open in higher crime areas, for the obvious reasons. Shopliftng, robbery, etc. Loss prevention cuts far more heavily into an already thin potential for profit margin.

          • Crime through out the city has dropped, these areas are safer now than they have been in probably 30 years. It’s a battle against perception.

          • That’s gentrification.

          • Gentrification comes after.
            What it really is was that the crack epidemic killed itself.

          • Keep in mind, the economically depressed areas in DC are now a lot of families making 50-100 K

  • The fact is that culture has a broader impact than race, but stereotypes of who “looks” a certain cultural type play a big factor in how people judge each other— until people get to know each other.

  • noonefromtampa

    The most racist people I have ever met where in South Carolina (around Columbia and Greenville) and Boston

  • 2. In the criminal justice system, blacks are treated much more harshly than white counterparts.

    Blacks and other non-whites are something like 3.7 times more likely to get incarcerated for nonviolent offences, like marijuana possession than their white counterparts.

    If whites were incarcerated at the same rates as their non-white counterparts, I can guarantee you that marijuana would be not only decriminalized, but would be legalized.

    • It’s way too complicated to just gloss over it like that, though. There are geographical, economic, and local statutory issues that affect sentencing. As I said below, it’s legitimate discussion, but it’s not fair or accurate to make a blanket statement about sentencing of minorities vs. whites.

      • Having been involved in the criminal justice system first-hand for awhile, my informed opinion is that success at trial and sentencing has a whole lot more to do with quality of defense counsel than anything else, and that is directly tied to economics.

        Policing is a different discussion.

        • Poor folks often get stuck with public defenders, who are usually good people who try hard, but they get absolutely dwarfed by the resources and investigative capabilities of even a small county DA’s office. Wealthy folks hire bigger criminal defense firms with investigators and underlings who can put together a much better case.

          • So “equal justice for all” is just a farce.

          • Economic reality is that not all criminal defenses are equal, and the constitution doesn’t promise everyone OJ Simpson’s defense team. It just promises a defense.

          • They also golf with the judge.

          • Public defenders sometimes do that stuff too.

          • Sure, ones the DA is eyeballing to recruit 🙂

          • The public defenders can’t afford to take judges to fancy golf courses, but they do go to the judicial receptions and similar events in an attempt to curry favor.

          • I’ve hired both expensive lawyers, and cheap lawyers, and can say from experience, you get what you pay for. Matthew McConaughey ain’t saving ya, believe that.

    • Different_Cat

      It also shows up in the form of different levels of punishment for black-type crimes versus white-type crimes, e.g., disparity in sentence harshness for crack cocaine vs. powder cocaine.

    • $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  • Greg…are you hearing anything I am saying.

    • No actually I’m not. You weren’t a slave you weren’t subject to those conditions but yet you want to claim that somehow as holding you personally back? Sorry I’m just not seeing it or hearing it

  • Trump and Kim

    I seriously would be OK, if they got together and just decided to “wrestle” for it. Winner take all. I have more faith in that approach than I do in these 2 buffoons actually trying to hammer out a deal. But I hope to be surprised.

    • Even though I dislike both, I’d hope for a positive outcome. Stability there would be a big step towards the eventual global government.

    • I think tremendous progress has already been made. The fact that the two Korean leaders had their summit at the border a couple of weeks ago was historic all by itself. Agreeing to end the war is a much bigger deal than some realize. Good things can happen, although it needs to come with tons of real verification because we can never forget that Kim is murdering thug no matter what he says now.

  • btg • 3 minutes ago
    Tell me in real world turns today how your life on a day-to-day basis is affected by slavery because I just don’t understand it
    ___________________________________________
    1. Lighter skinned blacks are treated better and are more likely to advance faster and farther than darker skinned blacks.
    2. In the criminal justice system, blacks are treated much more harshly than white counterparts. Comes from slavery, whereas blacks were lynched for even the smallest of crimes.
    3. Slaves were rarely educated or allowed to read and had access to poor conditions; Today poor blacks have access to poor schools and facilities with fewer resources.

    • Again how is your life affected

      • noonefromtampa

        about the same way you life has been enhanced by just being white

        • ^^^ post of the day

        • Sorry chief that don’t fly. I’ve had to work for everything I’ve got Being White had nothing to do with it

          • There are blacks and others that work just as hard of not harder and still don’t have what you have. You just don’t KNOW that your whiteness affords you things you don’t even know.

          • Agreed to disagree

          • Different_Cat

            It’s probably not something that can be proven on an individual basis. Were you approved for a loan that you wouldn’t have gotten if you were black? Did you get an apartment that would have been denied to you if you were black? Did you NOT get pulled over by the police because you were white? These things can only be seen statistically.

      • Greg, there’ve been lots of academic studies on sentencing in criminal courts as to whites vs blacks and other minorities. I’ve read some of it, but I’m not an expert in it. You can find data that supports whatever position you want to take, but it is at least a legitimate argument.

        • Different_Cat

          There have also been lot of studies about things like loan acceptance rates and workplace hiring where blacks are statistically discriminated against.

    • Different_Cat

      I don’t know how you can separate slavery from the whole African American experience. At the root level, freed slaves had no accumulated wealth. Even today there are white families that can trace their wealth and prestige to pre-emancipation times. Beyond that, we didn’t go from slavery to full equality with the emancipation proclamation. For practical purposes the lives of many southern blacks didn’t change much for decades, simply because they had few opportunities. Slavery also led in a very direct way to the Jim Crow laws of the 20th century.

      And then there are the psychological consequences of such an egregious wrong. Hell, the Jews still talk about being enslaved in Egypt, and that was thousands of years ago.

  • noonefromtampa

    I think the “lasting” thing from slavery is the perception in some people’s minds that black people are somehow inferior or second class citizens

    • That’s clearly a part of it.

      • There’s also a theory that all “empires” are build on the backs of a large under valued working class. After slavery was outlawed our society has continually searched for cheap labor to exploit and replace it, and there have been obvious repercussions to that through out history.

  • noonefromtampa

    Neutral Court announced

    it’s Singapore for Trump vs Kim cage match

  • Just only about 50 years ago was a law passed that outlawed segregation. Before that, segregation was LEGAL in some places. If math wasn’t your subject, that wasn’t in 1865

    • Oh, I’m with you there; that’s totally fair. But I just don’t agree that hanging on to the institution of slavery, itself, is a valid excuse/reason for anything anymore.

      • No it’s not…but the “bootstraps” mentality doesn’t work for everyone….it’s not enough to just say pull your own self up.

  • On a lighter note….

    I just copped an authentic, signed Dave Butz jersey last night off e-bay for 100 bucks

  • noonefromtampa

    so let’s see

    almost 200 years of slavery
    100 years of oppression and civil rights violations
    and the answer is to “move on”

    I have to side with Rick on this one

    • noonefromtampa

      But I will say if the police ask you nicely for your ID or just move along

      Just do it!

      arguing even if you are right isn’t the smart thing to do

  • btg • 2 minutes ago
    5 generations later that child’s children don’t know the effects

    Sorry bad example on your part
    ________________________________________________
    Have you ever been sexually abused?

    • No have you ever been enslaved

      • We were having a civil discussion….until you came along. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

        • Tell me in real world terms today how your life on a day-to-day basis is affected by slavery because I just don’t understand it

  • There are two ideals that would make this country much better:

    1. The Golden Rule, and

    2. [That all people] will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, who they pray to (or don’t), sexual orientation, etc., but by the content of their character.

    We would be much better off.

    • I agree . constantly labeling people in every facet of society makes that harder to achieve . black , white , gay , straight , muslim , christian , etc . Identity politics . You are instantly judging people when you label them and put them into groups .

    • I agree with that, although it’s unlikely to occur in my lifetime.

      • It’s simply an ideal.

        1. Before you act, ask yourself if this is the way you would like to be treated.

        2. Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise.

  • I have never been taught, or do I teach my child that all white people, or any people are racist or one thing.

    Treat people the way you want to be treated. Always worked for me.

    except for when I was called the N-word in S.C. …but you get my point 🙂

    • noonefromtampa

      Hey in NC an old black guy told me I clean my ribs like a N-word when I ate at his BBQ joint

      What I could I say except “Thanks, the ribs are delicious.”

    • As a white dude, I get way thrown off when I’m called the N word.

    • Were you called the N-word by a black or white person? Because that apparently makes a big difference (though I still have not figured out why)

  • Steve Thomas Team Captain • 4 minutes ago
    I’m a “move on” kind of person. When it’s done, it’s done. Talking about treatment today is fair. I don’t really care much one way or the other about 150 years ago except out of intellectual curiosity. But that’s me.
    ______________________________________________________________________
    When a child is sexually abused, do they effects end when the abuse stops?

    • Of course the effects are still there; the questions we tend to disagree on are a matter of degree.

    • 5 generations later that child’s children don’t know the effects

      Sorry bad example on your part

    • Of course not, but that’s an experience that happened to that person. Nobody alive today was a slave or slaver.

  • Squinnsamania, brother!

    Other observations living across from projects.

    Very few of the people from the projects will look up and acknowledge when passing you on the sidewalk (whereas other people may say hello, whats up or the like or even a head hod). Literally will not make eye contact. Still seems so awkward to me several years later.

    One time I was smoking a cigar outside in the middle of the day. Large, jacked black man came over to me. Have to admit I was nervous. Started talking to me. The whole time, I’m like when’s he going to ask for something. Never did. Continued to have a completely pleassant conversation. Now when we see eachother, we always say hello and shoot the shit. I often times see him outside picking up his daughter from school bus stop.

  • noonefromtampa

    Even the criminal thing is racist

    the white male conservative criminal is a super villain who is attempting down governments

    the black male is robbing, raping and slinging drugs in da hood

    • We’re making progress, these days white male conservative criminal’s are more synonymous with rape than ever, heck we are even adding white male liberals to that one.

    • If you want a crack dealer, he’s black.

      If you want an opioid-pill dealer, he’s white.

      • noonefromtampa

        not necessarily

        Bloods and Crips are hooking up with the Chinese gangs who are importing opioids like Fentanyl from China

      • opioid-pill dealers aren’t the problem. Got to go after the manufacturing.

  • Rick, I like you, but I just realized you used the term “microaggression” down there. Ugh. Penalty flag.

    • noonefromtampa

      I used it first

    • As much as I dislike it’s overuse in pop-culture, it’s actually a very sensible term.

      • Sorry, but I find “microaggression”, “white privilege”, and “cultural appropriation” to be largely psuedo-intellectual mumbo jumbo drummed up by uber-liberals to try to mask what is otherwise bald (and often baseless) opinions about race/ethnicity/culture, employed one way toward people who hold a different viewpoint.

        • One of the most frustrating things to me about politics in this country is that the political left makes a big point of claiming to be the party of inclusion, yet derides me as a conservative Christian for holding views that aren’t in lockstep with theirs. If you’re inclusive, why don’t you respect my views, and why do you continually try and marginalize me?

        • I’d say the intent of all these was people trying to stop calling everything racist while at the same time trying to point out misbehavior that should be corrected. Though it’s misguided in it’s use. Less broad brushes, more needle point.

          Also, it’s not psuedo-intellectual mumbo jumbo. It’s straight up intellectualism. Microaggression was a term coined by a Harvard professor.

          • And Nazi raciology was developed by Germans with highly advanced science and medical degrees. It’s still a psuedo-science because it is based almost entirely on subjective perception – just like “microaggressions”.

          • Ahh, see here’s the problem, you think it’s a science thing. No, just because we use it in political science, it’s not really a science. It’s more a philosophy thing.

          • That’s why I initially said “psuedo-intellectual” instead of “pseudo-scientific”. I use the Nazi raciology analogy to illustrate that just b/c otherwise smart-seeming people come up with it doesn’t mean it can’t be “pseudo”.

            What is “microaggression” exactly? Please explain to me how it is anything other than being overly sensitive about thinking someone is being a racist towards you but you aren’t really sure.

          • Microaggressions are the everyday
            verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs, or insults, whether
            intentional or unintentional, which communicate hostile, derogatory, or
            negative messages to target persons based solely upon their
            marginalized group membership.
            https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/microaggressions-in-everyday-life/201011/microaggressions-more-just-race

            Or more simply, microaggression is a casual insult to an ethnic group that most of us won’t notice.

          • Right. Sounds alot like being overly sensitive to something that may not be there – a casual insult that most won’t notice? OK…Stop and think about that for a moment.

          • “microagression” is just quasi-intellectual mumbo-jumbo created by people trying to sound smart.

  • noonefromtampa

    what my great-great-great-great-great grandmother may have done…

    Steve’s GGGGGM: You are very handsome, we are you from?
    Stranger: I am a warrior from Africa
    Steve’s GGGGGM: Really, want to come over for some fresh mead and hot bread?
    Stranger: Sounds nice, thanks!

    • noonefromtampa

      [next morning]
      Stranger: Fifteen is my limit on schnitzengruben

    • Maybe. I have no idea one way or the other. I doubt they were wealthy because my family today, what little there is, has no wealth, but other than that I don’t know who they were or what they did.

      • noonefromtampa

        until the last 100 years or so

        wealth could be a fleeting thing

        the biggest wealth factor was land

        but even that could be taken away

        now with banks, lawyers and trusts wealth preservation is a lot easier

        than just hoarding gold and art

  • Let me give you another example and then I have to roll..

    Baker Mayfield was arrested and on video less than a year ago, and became the #1 overall pick in the draft. Guice has had ZERO arrests, convictions, or domestic violence accusations and he slips to #59.

    That’s blatant

  • The other stereotype is that when black men have white wimmen, it’s because white girls are “easier”. When white wimmen want black men, it’s because of curiosity or their sexual prowess…they whole “beauty and the beast” thing.

    • That’s the kind of weird racism I’ll never get.

    • Also, sometimes (probably lots of times) a white lady meets a really great guy who happens to be black. And they fall in love, yada yada, and everyone lives happily ever after.

      But there is that stereotype of the “white woman” who’s after whatever.

  • I have moderate views. I tell my wife all the time that SOMETIMES black people are our own worst enemy. To put it plain, we got issues in our own house that we are accountable for. It ain’t always “the white man”.

  • I agree, a lot of it is fear….will I say the wrong thing?

    • Being in the military for so long, I found that to be a remarkably race-free experience, mostly because we’re all in this together and when bad things happened or the alarm went off, so to speak, I was pretty thrilled to have people beside me no matter what they looked like. Multiple than by 1000 for front-line infantry units.

  • Steve…

    It’s rooted in slavery in the black culture….lighter skinned blacks were treated better and were used in the fields. Darker skinned blacks were treated worse….and what makes it bad, slaveowners pitted them against each other, thus today, lighter skinned blacks are considered snobby or trying to “be white”. It’s stupid, but it’s very deeply rooted in our culture.

    • Rich people pitting different groups of pour people against each other in order to maintain control. Literally been doing it for 1000’s of years.

    • noonefromtampa

      the house negro vs the field negro conflict

    • I find the “Uncle Tom” phenomenon to be quite head-scratching and appalling from a distance. Like if you don’t fit a black stereotype put onto you by other blacks, then you aren’t really black.

      IDK, I’m trying to think of an equivalent in white culture, but there isn’t really one. Maybe it used to be the whole “wigger” thing, but that never seemed to carry the same level of malice or vitriol

    • What’s frustrating to me about that as an observer is that slavery ended in 1865. I don’t know why a group of people continue to hold onto that experience when there’s not one person alive today that has even talked to a slave or a slave holder.

      • because it’s legacy is still felt. The effects don’t end with the institution.

        • I’m a “move on” kind of person. When it’s done, it’s done. Talking about treatment today is fair. I don’t really care much one way or the other about 150 years ago except out of intellectual curiosity. But that’s me.

        • Yes, there’s a lot of organizations and social structure things that grew out of the post slavery era.
          Much of our justice system ties back to it, the use of high prison populations as a replacement for the slave labor force, for example

        • Squinnsamania, brother!

          Yes, institutional racism has lingered (and still lingers today) far past the institution of slavery.

  • @Rick….

    I think the story is a great example of micro-aggression, as its defined.

    But also consider that a lot of white people have a deep fear of seeming racist, and it makes them act awkwardly around black people. Sometimes, I think, they worry so much that they’ll say the wrong thing or look the wrong way or whatever, that they end up being/seeming worse than if they’d just be themselves.

  • noonefromtampa

    Also people watch TV shows what do you get from that

    black male + hoodie = thug

    • Rap music perpetuates that stereotype, too, at least what I’ve seen of it.

    • I watch TV and here’s what I usually get from it too:

      white male + conservative = show’s heel

      • Always true. For example, I watched the show “Quantico” on ABC for most of one season but didn’t return to it when I realized I could write the script for them. The bad guy was the evil white conservative male, which is fine since it’s just a story, but it’s the boring hollywood new stereotype.

        • They are always the unreasonable people getting in the way of the protagonist’s quest. I was watching that show “Designated Survivor” for a little bit and they tried to paint Kiefer Sutherland’s character as an “independent”. But he was just a liberal fighting against conservatives on the show.

          • Yeah, I watched the first 3-4 episodes of that and then abandoned it for that same reason.

  • This is how to have an intelligent discussion about a sensitive subject…good job, people. Nobody’s ruined it, yet.

  • Much of it is class though…

    rich and poor, regardless of color, seldom mix. Rich blacks don’t like poor blacks, so there’s that.

    • noonefromtampa

      light skin blacks vs dark skin blacks – seen that happen too

      • Absolutely

        • But what’s the point, and who cares? For example, my dad has a very dark complexion and black hair (mostly black, some grey, now) and people occasionally think he’s hispanic, but his/our ancestors are from Europe. But why’s that important at all? I honestly have little idea about the good and bad things my ancestors did, and it isn’t that important to me other than for the sake of curiosity. What my great-great-great-great-great grandmother may have done 200 years ago isn’t really relevant to me.

  • More than anything in this country, we have a culture problem.

    The vast, vast majority of Americans will be cool with anyone of any color provided that:
    A.) They get to know that person.
    B.) Those generally shares the same views, beliefs, opinions, behaviors, ethics, morality, and politics.

    If it was a “race” issue, people would still hate each other, even if A and B happened. And that just isn’t so in this country, generally speaking.

    • PS I agree with Ta-Nehisi Coates that “race” does not exist. There is one race. The human one.

  • Let me give you an example of a microagression…not necessarily racism.

    I’m at a banquet last evening honoring one of my teachers. I was the only black person at the table. One of the white ladies at the table was talking and NEVER once looked at me, engaged me or made eye contact. It was as if I was not ever there. It became so evident that the teacher interrupted her and introduced me as his boss and her attitude completely changed.

    • I’m sorry that happened to you, although I’m sure it’s not the first time. It’s stupid.

      • …and I don’t think she’s racist. It’s just probably natural to her, and she didn’t know what she was really doing.

        • It’s an interesting thing. Should be pointed out, we all have those “ticks”, the best most of us can do is be self aware enough to know what our ticks are.

  • Squinnsamania, brother!

    Things have definitely gotten worse since Hootie went country.

  • noonefromtampa

    with homeless from what I have seen come down to 2 major categories

    1. Drug users
    2. Mentally challenged people (bi-polar, PTSD vets, other mental illnesses)

    that being said there is also a small group of people homeless due to economic hardship
    those are usually the easy to help and “fix” with assistance and training programs

    the funny thing is that as economically blighted areas (aka slums) get made over into nice areas you end up displacing the homeless (who displaced but don’t move on) and lower economic classes (who generally migrate to a different area)

    this biggest problems we face is how to treat drug addicts and how to treat the mentally ill

    fix those two things and the homeless problem gets very small

    problem is a bunch of those people do not want any help

  • I joked earlier, but racism is rooted in the twisted idea that someone that doesn’t look like me is coming for what I believe is mine….my money, my neighborhood, my husband/wife, my job, my club, my sport, my belief system…so I have to come up with ways to keep that person out. Also, it is rooted in ignorance, and misperceptions and stereotypes and this goes for ALL people of ALL races.

    • My opinion: ethnicity is a made-up construct without meaning and is used only to further divide people. Humans are all the same, and we’d all be better off in the long-run by starting to call us all just Americans, and not identifying with a meaningless ethnic group. It’s not like we’re different breeds of dogs that have different physical and behavioral characteristics.

      • Yes, we’re all Americans but people are naturally self segregating Steve. In the 20’s and 30’s…Germans weren’t signing up to live with Hatians. LOL

      • It’s a nice way to think, but such utopian views are always easier to have when you don’t have the baggage that comes with having been part of a historically repressed group and haven’t experienced that stuff or been raised from childhood with the collective memory of being repressed.

    • Squinnsamania, brother!

      I live across from the projects. I live at the line of haves (and I mean very comfortable “haves”) and have-nots. Literally right on the corner.

      There are so many differences. The people from the projects have absolutely no respect for their neighbors. Constant yelling. Blaring music. Littering. Loittering. Often times nicer cars than those living on the haves side of that line. Sometimes they’l loiter under our building and talk loudly til 5 or 6 in the morning. And, if you say anything… you’re the bad guy.

      • This is a great example of the cultural divide we have in this country.

        It doesn’t matter what color you are, if you talk loudly outside my window at 4 am, I’m going to dislike you.

      • Great point Squinns…and from that come stereotypes that ALL poor blacks are like that and from those stereotypes come racism…let’s make laws or gentrify neighborhoods to keep them out.

        I get it. I hate em’ too. LOL

        • Squinnsamania, brother!

          I am not trying to stereotype. They are literally my observations over several years. I literally see it all the time, and I mean all the time.

          Two additional observations:

          1. The conduct seems to be perfectly acceptable to the people in the projects.
          2. I’m sure it is a couple of bad apples. But, that is what people see when observing from the outside.

  • We can bury our heads in the sand all we want and pretend that we don’t have a race problem in this country, but it is getting worse, not better.

    • No Punt Intended

      Chill out my friend. We are Redskins fans.

      WE ARE ALL RACISTS!

    • I doubt anyone thinks there isn’t racism in this country and around the world (it’s much worse in some other countries than here). The extent of it, the coverage of it by the media, and the handling of it by business and governments is a debate.

    • It’s getting worse? Considering where things began in this country regarding race-relations, I’d say we are on an upward trend. But that’s just my opinion. What golden-era of race relations are you comparing things to today?

      • The divisions between cultures has gotten worse over the past several years, in my opinion. Certainly, though, progress has been made.

        • Squinnsamania, brother!

          If by progress you mean over the long-term, than absolutely. In the past 5 years, though, relations seem to have taken a step back (maybe they were always there, but it wasn’t brewing at the surface).

        • “division between cultures” – well that’s part of the issue, isn’t it. Is America supposed to be a place of divided cultures or not? Over the course of my lifetime, I have become confused as to what the liberal minority activist wants. It used to be access, participation, opportunity. Now it sounds more like a reversion to “separate but equal” with minorities getting concerned that their particular sub-culture will disappear if they participate too much in the larger segment of society. So. IDK. I think people have their individual experiences and views, and then too often formulate sweeping generalizations about “race relations” from that…including me.

      • When you have the leader of the free world refer to a group of players in a majority African American league as “sons of bitches”, and that same leader appeases the alt-right when an innocent protested was run down and killed, that’s regression.

        • Or is that just the case of a single a-hole loudmouth who just so happens to have a really big microphone being a giant doosh?

        • You know how I feel about that, Rick. I think the players needlessly and dramatically overreacted to that.

    • noonefromtampa

      Another issue is the other minorities are replacing blacks as the lead minority

      like Hispanics and Asians

      so blacks are becoming a minority among minorities

  • FROM NEWSONE:
    One of the few Black players in the National Hockey League has been dealing with so much racism that he needs a police escort, according to reports. Detroit Red Wings prospect Givani Smith has been dealing with racial taunts from the beginning of this season, the Waterloo Region Record reported last week.

    With approximately 30 Black people among the nearly 700 players, diversity is probably the last thing the NHL, let alone ice hockey, is known for.
    _________________________________________
    Translation…you’ve already got basketball and football, I’ll be damned if you take hockey….SMH.

    • We had that incident years ago with Ward on the Caps, when they were playing in Boston.

    • Squinnsamania, brother!

      Black people don’t like the cold. Hockey has its roots in the cold and is played on ice. Hence, little Black participation in hockey.

      • No Punt Intended

        ^ Jimmy the Greek

      • Squinnsamania, brother!

        Seriously, though, hockey is a cold weather sports that grew up in the North. I’b interested in seeing the black per capita rates the further north you go. I suspect there’s a pretty sharp decline.

        • Easy answer. Canadian black population – 750,000 2.5% of the total pop. 11% of the population is of mixed ethnic background.
          However, here are some far northern cities in the US % of African American’s.
          Detroit
          82.7%

          Buffalo 13%
          Boston 25%
          So why aren’t we getting a bunch of African American redwings fans?

          • How do you know there aren’t a bunch of African-American Redwings fans?

          • Because that would result in more African-American kids playing hockey, and being in the pros

    • The black player on the Nashville Predators, Supan (can’t remember his first name), is apparently something of a hero in Nashville according to my dad, who’s become a big NHL fan since he gave up the NFL.

  • Just got an alert on my phone. Another Euro soccer star I’ve never heard of is apparently joining the DC United. This is the second big-time Euro dude to come to the states in the past month or two. Perhaps MLS is starting to get more respect, which is good.

    I still probably won’t watch, though.

    • Eh, it’s not like MLS is getting guys in their prime, it’s mostly when they are washing out of the major leagues.
      The guy United’s getting was a good forward at one point, but now in his 30’s he’s moved to midfield.

    • Wayne Rooney. Will be a big publicity boost for opening the new stadium.

  • noonefromtampa

    Amazon Web Services CEO Andy Jassy said on Wednesday it’s “super dangerous” for Seattle to consider taxing large companies — and risk dampening job creation — to offset the effects of gentrification and homelessness.

    In particular, Jassy was critical of the proposed “head tax,” which would apply to 585 businesses with $20 million or more in yearly revenue, according to The Seattle Times. Those companies would pay a tax of 26 cents per full-time employee per hour for 2019 and 2020, which would convert to a 0.7 percent payroll tax after that.
    ====================================
    More taxes to solve a problem!

    • Seattle has an absurd number of basically sanctioned homeless colonies that are full of drugs and crime. They’re ruining their own city by allowing that to happen.

      • Same thing in California
        Afterwards the areas where they set up camp needs to have a haz mat crew come in and clean up
        Needles and human wastes

        • It’s liberal guilt. If you want to help the homeless, which we should, generally speaking, then the city should help fund more homeless shelters, food lines, and treatment programs, not just let the homeless build tent cities and take over.

          • Squinnsamania, brother!

            I was on the Board of large provider of services to the poor in Baltimore. The homeless need safety/shelter, rehab services, mental health treatment (probably underlying their addition issues), and a plan for re-deployment into society. Anything else, which may be sympathy, is not the answer.

          • I completely agree. I was about to edit my post to add job training programs, but you said it better than I did. Most certainly, what these west coast cities are doing is the wrong thing.

          • Agreed that the homeless need those things, and though I don’t know the details about this issue it sounds like the tax they are trying to levy is meant to pay for some kinds of programs.

        • Portland Oregon , San Fran

  • noonefromtampa

    Eli Manning is excited by the Giants draft

    I bet, teams won’t just be able to tee it up on you

  • noonefromtampa

    Tourists have been warned against feeding the wildlife in Australia after an increase in kangaroo attacks have left guests with gory gashes.

    Officials have said the attacks occurred while tourists attempted to feed the native animals junk food like corn chips and McDonald’s
    ===============================
    and to save time

    Leave kangaroos alone!!!!!!!

    — Buck

  • noonefromtampa

    A Black Student at Yale Was Napping in a Common Area, and a White Student Called the Police
    ======================
    Allegedly the same student called the police on a black person who got lost in the same building while trying to visit a friend

    • Somebody’s kid grew up in a bubble.

    • walter_in_fallschurch

      surely s/he was just calling the cops to help the poor lost soul to find his way.

    • Terrible headline. Doesn’t explain anything. (1) Black student was napping in a common area; (2) white student called the police. Were they related at all, or was the call to the police about something else entirely and the police just stumbled on the black student? Or was the incident what the headline wants you to believe?

      • Um, it’s a perfect headline. Completely achieves the objective of further dividing folks along the lines of race and politics. What part of that don’t you get?

        — Wapo Editor-in-Chief

        • Good point….goal achieved.

          • I mean, even if the white kid did call the police because of the black kid, maybe the black kid didn’t live in that dorm and looked like a hobo, or maybe the white kid is a flaming racist. Either way, why in the heck is this newsworthy?

          • The same student has called the cops on black classmates 2 other times including one time on the same person in this story.

          • and….? One white kid appears to be a racist!!!! Details at 11. Why in the heck is this newsworthy?

          • It made the news because video’s went up on-line of one of the incidence and the head of Yale had to send out a public response.

          • That isn’t newsworthy.

          • Maybe the Washington Post should just start keeping a running tally. On this day, X number of white people used the N word, X number of black people called a white person a honky, X number of hispanics were slurred, X number of Jews were insulted. That’s not a bad idea.

          • noonefromtampa

            some people who call that statement white microaggression

          • One person calling the police inappropriately isn’t anything at all, to me.

      • noonefromtampa

        Conjunction Junction, what’s your function? Hooking up words and phrases and clauses

        “and a White…”

    • What kind of society are we in where college kids would call the cops for anything? Dorms are for wild sex, drinking and doing illicit things. If I’d found out anyone in my dorm had called the cops for anything, rather than solve it in house, I’d be asking the RA to kick them out.

  • noonefromtampa

    RIP Baltimore County Executive Kevin Kamenetz — a Democratic candidate for governor died Thursday morning of a heart attack

    you have been recalled by God, his vote is final

  • noonefromtampa

    A body has been found at the site where witnesses reported a teenage boy was attacked by an alligator, the Orange County Sheriff’s Office said.

    Well that’s Gators 4 Humans 0 this week

    • Lazy gator didn’t even finish?

      • noonefromtampa

        ikr, how impolite not to finish your meal when guest dining

        • walter_in_fallschurch

          well… actually, in many parts of the middle east it is rude to “clean your plate”. the implication is that the host did not feed you enough.

    • Leave alligators alone

      • walter_in_fallschurch

        my mother-in-law played lots of golf in florida. she was a bad, bad golfer, but moved along quickly, so it was no big deal. anyway, she’d go right up pretty close to an alligator to retrieve or hit her ball. however, she’d completely freak out at the sight of a palmetto bug.

    • That’s the most the Gators have outscored anyone by since Urban Meyer left for OSU!

      Come on, Gators, get up and go!

  • So Hilldawg was on Twitter this morning……….. watching the dumpster fire that is her legacy, burn.

  • noonefromtampa

    So after yesterday’s discussion, what should on the news down here last night…

    There is a warning for pet owners in parts of southern Pinellas County. Neighbors are seeing coyotes roaming the area, and some are missing their cats.

    “It was loud. It was horrific. She was able to watch it,” Tami Taylor said of her Jungle Terrace neighbor who watched a coyote go after a pet.

    “My neighbor across the street heard it two nights ago and it was right outside her bedroom window and it killed her cat,” said Taylor.

    Neighbors are reporting coyotes in many locations, not just nearby woods.

    “There’s sightings everywhere,” she said.

    Fact is, coyotes are common, even in built up areas of Pinellas County.

  • Jet’s Kevin Beachum says he won’t know about QB Darnold until he gets “hit in the mouth.”

    Apparently, absorbing hits to the mouth is an important skill for Jets QBs.

  • walter_in_fallschurch

    how do you pronounce “apke”?

  • Apke, Hamilton, Stroman, Trey Gruden…don’t doubt that we’ll see all those guys participating in teams.

  • Everything is going to be fine, relax.

    • You ready for the killenest kill you’ll see all day?

      • Sure

        • Don’t blink…you’ll miss it

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsm1yiMk_6s

          • I used to raise Regals to fight, I could get 5 dollars for a good spider. Feeding them flys and crickets makes them grow quickly, but also makes them lazy, which is great if they are a pet. The secret to raising a good fighting spider, wasps, other spiders. If you study them, they understand how to hit other species based on what weapons that other species possesses. For instance, with a wasp, the only attack from above and behind, pinning the wasp’s wings to it’s side and sawing it in half with their fangs. The wasp can’t fly, and can’t hit them with their stinger.

          • Once when I was a kid, I put a daddy long legs in a jar with a wasp (Hatecrime! Alert PETA)…

            Anyway, I asked my little brother who he thought would win. He guessed wasp. I was like… care to wager?

            Daddy long legs owned that poor wasp.

          • They just don’t have the chompers.

  • For guys like Stroman and the UDFAs, showing an aptitude on Teams is the way to make the 53.

  • Different_Cat

    If Moreau and Dunbar are going to be starters you probably don’t want them playing special teams on a regular basis.

  • I’d rather the return guy have two left feet than to ever see Crowder field another punt again

  • Spirst